Lands of MYTH Forum

MYTH => Suggestions => : Hyperion April 30, 2013, 01:26:57 AM

: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Hyperion April 30, 2013, 01:26:57 AM
So, I'm sure the MERC guys have done extensive play testing and theory crafting and have already covered this, but it strikes me that they have about 2 hours of game play footage, and I don't think I've seen one instance of a hero missing an attack.  (Only miss I saw got re-rolled by apprentice passive.)  I personally think that it might take some excitement out of the game if you basically already know the outcome of attacking.  Also, at a certain point, it makes cards such "Stand Fast", adding attack die a bit superfluous.  The typical answer of most games is a 1 is always a miss, but I don't think that work here. 

Instead I think it could add excitement to the game to have the attack increase in strength with every 10 rolled (or maybe 9 & 10).  This adds variability making it more exciting to roll the attack die, and also ensures that there is always some benefit to adding more attack die.  For some abilities this could be additional blood, for others it would hit additional targets.

Ex: Chain lightning hits 3 additional targets (down from 4 in the video) + 1 target for every 10 rolled up to a max of 6 additional targets.
Ex: Cleave extends the 180 degree arc by one square clockwise for every 10 rolled.  (Max at 360 sweep.)
Ex: Last Rites (Acolyte cross shaped attack) does +1 blood to the main target for every 10 rolled up to a max of 3 blood.
Also, re-roll buffs could allow misses to be re-rolled to go for more 10's.

Pros:
1) You roll a lot, lets keep it exciting.
2) More chances for that epic story ("Remember that time I saved the day by rolling those three 10s!?")
3) Increases strategic thought by having to consider risk/reward of hoping for a 10.

Cons:
1) Adds complexity.  Which honestly is a very significant negative.


Along a similar vein, I think that making the hero's unhittable with enough defense is a little extreme too ("Armor of Faith" with 8 faith from the acolyte video for example).  It strikes me that the standard solution is to say a 10 always hits.  To make it more "Myth" like, perhaps if the darkness needs 11+ to hit the hero, (aka currently unhittable) then do the roll like normal, but for every 10 rolled, roll a fate die to see if you actually get hit.  (Thus you could essential make the d10 into d20 or whatever probability is appropriate.)  Again, my basic premise is it is exciting to have a bit of uncertainty.

Let me know what you guys think!

Cheers.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Madclaw April 30, 2013, 02:37:18 AM
This is an interesting idea. It basically takes the Critical Hit idea from various d20 games and implements it here. Another thing you can add to this is the 1 take away successes. This is done in various White Wolf games all the time. Basically, say you have a TN of 6 and you roll 1,3,4,5,6 on 5 d10. You'd normally hit, but with rolling a 1 it takes away the 6 and you miss the attack. You could also add in that 1s always subtract the highest number as well. So, if you rolled a 10 and a 1 in the same roll you wouldn't get your critical bonus.

Not to detract, but we should probably move this thread to the Fan Created Content section.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Yamato April 30, 2013, 12:30:59 PM
I like the ideas,... but sad to say that, at this point, the base game rules are pretty much set.

You have to consider that they have been in effect and tested for months and months....

that is not to say that something like this could not be incorporated into a future official optional rules set (and easy to house rule if you like).


all that said,... I think that because of the epic tale and boastful story nature of the game,... I'm fine with success being the most common outcome,.... indeed, you should be really stunned when attacks don't work,..... epic failure sure be rare in that setting.

I think it also places an emphasis on buffing those rolls,.... there was a lot of that in the videos,... and if players are not utilizing their cards well to do that,.,.. we might have seen some more failures than we did.

: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: MythMaster April 30, 2013, 03:53:49 PM
Note, that even with all of the success of the heroes shown in the videos...in the end they all died.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Shobai April 30, 2013, 04:08:55 PM
Definitely an interesting observation, MythMaster
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Iron Syndicate April 30, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
Yeah, I don't think this game is so much about whether or not you're gonna kill the baddies, but rather how you're gonna kill them. It's much more about strategically managing your kills to maximize treasure drops and balance threat vs. AP consumption.

After all, if you think about it thematically - this is a bunch of guys sitting around the campfire telling heroic stories. "And then we missed all the orcs..." doesn't make for a very exciting tale...
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Auctorium April 30, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
Yeah, I don't think this game is so much about whether or not you're gonna kill the baddies, but rather how you're gonna kill them. It's much more about strategically managing your kills to maximize treasure drops and balance threat vs. AP consumption.

After all, if you think about it thematically - this is a bunch of guys sitting around the campfire telling heroic stories. "And then we missed all the orcs..." doesn't make for a very exciting tale...

Though still a possible one.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Fade2Gray April 30, 2013, 06:54:45 PM
Yeah, I don't think this game is so much about whether or not you're gonna kill the baddies, but rather how you're gonna kill them. It's much more about strategically managing your kills to maximize treasure drops and balance threat vs. AP consumption.

After all, if you think about it thematically - this is a bunch of guys sitting around the campfire telling heroic stories. "And then we missed all the orcs..." doesn't make for a very exciting tale...

I think you're pretty on track here. When they were giving us the ideal numbers for minions over on BGG they stated that one of their base assumptions was that Heroes would hit more often than miss. The entire structure of the game is built around enemies (primarily minions) being a plentiful and renewable threat. It's reasonable then that most attacks should land. I do agree with the OP though that it is a little odd that they NEVER miss in any of the videos, but that may have just been a significant lucky streak. On the other hand, I don't remember a single fate role being successful.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Auctorium April 30, 2013, 07:20:16 PM
Mooks Only have a TN of ~4. You would have to have very bad luck to miss them. Once you start fighting Captains and above is when the real challenge starts.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Iron Syndicate May 01, 2013, 09:10:05 AM
Yeah, I don't think this game is so much about whether or not you're gonna kill the baddies, but rather how you're gonna kill them. It's much more about strategically managing your kills to maximize treasure drops and balance threat vs. AP consumption.

After all, if you think about it thematically - this is a bunch of guys sitting around the campfire telling heroic stories. "And then we missed all the orcs..." doesn't make for a very exciting tale...

I think you're pretty on track here. When they were giving us the ideal numbers for minions over on BGG they stated that one of their base assumptions was that Heroes would hit more often than miss. The entire structure of the game is built around enemies (primarily minions) being a plentiful and renewable threat. It's reasonable then that most attacks should land. I do agree with the OP though that it is a little odd that they NEVER miss in any of the videos, but that may have just been a significant lucky streak. On the other hand, I don't remember a single fate role being successful.

I actually think they did miss once, but they had the Apprentice's "Research" skill active, which allowed a re-roll. So that was lucky, I guess...
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: LaserJudas May 01, 2013, 11:51:35 AM
Note, that even with all of the success of the heroes shown in the videos...in the end they all died.

But man, it was glorious!
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Shobai May 01, 2013, 01:35:19 PM
yeah, come to think of it i don't remember a single FD 'recipe' going off - was that just because they had only starter gear? or am I just mis-remembering?

As has been said, minions having TN of 4 or so leaves a lot of room for captains, mini-bosses and bosses to be much harder to hit. Running on the assumption that they have access to FD recipes as well, there will be the possibility of some serious pain coming back our way.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: MythMaster May 01, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
Even with minions, there might be variance.  For example, an elemental minion might be harder to hit than a bug.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Shobai May 01, 2013, 01:45:34 PM
absolutely =) all of the minions we've seen so far have been TN4, though?
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: DoberFrann May 01, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
[I jumped several posts]
Well, there is a reason why minions are easy to hit. Minions[Arachnids] are hit with a 4+ on a D10. You need only successful D10 to succeed an attack on a minion.

1. Remember that at every refresh you have about 4 minion spawning per lair. The question is: can you kill more minion that the Darkness spawns?

2. The more you kill, the higher the Threat. 7+ (I think) Threat, will affect the minions spawned in that refresh. Also 10 Threat can lead to a Boss.

3. To attack Captains you have to pass a courage test. I have no idea what is going to be for Bosses.

Your system will be unbalance towards Threat. You will build Threat too easily, and would be harder to control.
: Re: Minor increase to uncertainty - Attack/Defend
: Shobai May 01, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
also, they mentioned some cards which have "count threat 8 as 10 if these conditions are met" rules.