Author Topic: Custom Hero Class: Brawler  (Read 10701 times)

Oileta

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2014, 05:48:39 PM »
sorry for the multiple small post and for the typos. I am on my phone right now so I had limited screen space to look at your cards

CarelessOpossum

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2014, 06:37:33 PM »
Challenge does probably make more sense as an interrupt.

I may change the hammer attack to 1 damage, and make the momentum bonus +1 damage to see how that plays, rather than increase the AP cost. If that doesn't work out, I'll try the AP increase.

I personally feel that the movement should be required for hammer and lunge - the whole idea behind it is the momentum for a more powerful strike.  Most of the other classes have targeting restrictions as well.

There are going to be several other attacks (6-7) that can be used as links that deal damage. I kinda purposely threw lunge and hustle on the same page due to the similarities (movements, do not deal damage themselves) Not all are going to be able to be openers.

Right now, tentatively:

4 Finishers    (one may be an opener as well)
2 Hustle        (movement)
2 Lunge        (movement, damage buff)
1 Improvise  (dig for finisher)
1 Prepare     (set up, + to non combat action)
6 attacks      (various openers, links - kicks, jabs, etc)
4 interrupts  (challenge, have a hip-toss move I am working on like you suggested)
2-3 stances   (ongoing buffs, limit 1 at a time, can be cleared)
1-2 group buffs  (likely 1 turn and not ongoing)

Is my general gameplan for the base 25 cards.

I'm eager to get something workable that I can print and start testing in actual gameplay - I think only then will I be able to see what works and what doesn't.

I appreciate the feedback so far - It's definitely changed what the class is since I started, and it seems hard to consider all of the angles yourself when designing cards.

CarelessOpossum

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 10:35:38 AM »
Sorry for the redonkulously large picture.

I think I'm getting -close- to having a solid 25 card deck for the class. The balance of things probably need gone over again (and again), so I was hoping a least a few brave souls would be interested in playtesting once I have a few final things ironed out.

I have been playtesting a bit using just a set amount of D10's per attempt, in line with whatever the other class ive been playing is rolling.  However, it is a bit less fun without actual items, so I threw some together (again, these probably need balanced as well).  For reference, The class has a base of 2d10, so take that into consideration (you know, because it's good with it's hands, etc).


Artisan

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 04:10:25 PM »
Blue item Cat's Claws = Tom Anderson's Pantera.  I've had a pair of those since high school.
Don't listen to anything I say.  I'm still a n00b.

Oileta

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 11:15:47 PM »
wow you have been busy. so, I like what I see, but I have questions.
First though, I am flattered that my brown item ideas are now cards! I feel special.

so, are you saying that the brawler is restricted (at least for primary or secondary items) to brawler-only items? that is fine if that is the case. if the brawler can use other items, then using the longsword + his base 2D10 is monstrous for just a green item. That said, if he is restricted to only his class of items, then it once again brings up the question of selective item decks depending on who is playing (bear in mind this does not limit him any more than the archer, although Brian has said that technically there are no item/class restrictions, just some combinations that make more sense than others, so you would be setting a precedent)
the potential for 2-blue card combinations is staggering! this seems to have some real potential!
one item i am sort of concerned about is the gloves of quickness; there are armor items that give +1MP, and I haven't looked through so there might be an accessory as well. This would open up the world to a primary/secondary MP improver, and that might possibly break the game. In terms of MOMENTUM, having three items that would improve MP would already give you a base move of 5. just something to think about.

I will look at it more tomorrow

Oileta

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 01:33:08 PM »
ps what is the 'myth' font you use for card titles? and how do I get my hands on it?

Oileta

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 11:07:13 PM »
hey, while I have the thought on my brain, maybe one upgradable card (one of the 5 out of the starter 30 cards) would be an attack that uses the bonuses from both weapons (dice total, mix and match FD formulae, etc) at once. Some sort of 'hulk smash' type double fisted attack.

CarelessOpossum

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2014, 12:52:19 AM »
The font is Mason Sans Bold.


I need some help with the whole weapons scenario.  Or some thoughts on which option would be better.


Some random thoughts:

Currently, the Brawler does more than just hit with his hands.  This causes some complications in attack mechanics.
Launching a kick attack while rolling the dice on a hand weapon or using it's fate recipe seems wrong, and not thematic.
Limiting the class to only punch/hand attacks seems boring, and not really the direction that I want the class to go.
Putting a fist weapon in the mainhand, and some sort of foot item in the offhand also seems thematically wrong.  I'm not even sure on how to come up with "foot" weapons, most of which are going to be silly if you have boots in the accessory slot, etc.  Rightfully so, the remaining slots need to not be tied up with items needed for class mechanics. I like having two fist weapons so that you can change it up depending on the situation, or between individual strikes in a chain.

I'll explain my current solution, as well as the downsides.

Character has a base of 2d10. (makes sense thematically as well, since he should fight decently barehanded).  This was, in part, to address the non-punch attacks. The respective hand weapons are thus scaled back approximately 1d10 from their sword/dagger/etc equivalents, for balance. 
I want the brawler to use fist weapons exclusively. Punching and whatnot with a sword doesn't fit.  They have a fist icon in the corner much like a relic or focus. Punch attacks are going to require a hand to hand icon weapon.

Scaling them back to fit the base 2d10 makes them undesirable to other characters. Having a handful of brawler specific items in the item deck chokes it down and keeps others from drawing things they need.  Is this a big deal? Are there some that might be used by a brigand or soldier despite this?  Making the fist weapons blah for others is my main concern.

Having a base of 2d10 allows the kicks/other to be effective without using the fist weapon dice.  At this point in time, I have designed them to be effective through other means. Most carry a +d10 to a particular type of movement. It seems to play well. It mixes up the decision process more than just saying Opener > Link > Finisher. You find yourself picking and choosing more carefully based on movement.

In general with the Brawler (and most other heroes)
2d10 with starter fists
2d10-3d10 with green
3d10-4d10 with blue

kicks/grapples/etc are
2d10 base
2d10-3d10 with correct movement
3d10-4d10 with correct movement and proper style.

Kicks were slightly boring since there is no fate recipe involved.  This, coupled with my play testing, made me rethink the stances.

Stances as I had them were not worthy of sticking around. They offered very minimal benefit, and tied up a precious threat-lowering slot if you didn't clear them immediately.  They need to be significant enough to have to make decisions on whether to keep them around or not.

I'm instead going to shift to "Styles". Same basic principle, but geared toward specific attacks. 



Or something like that. Probably needs tweaked in the FD and recipe areas, and looks a bit too busy.

Anyways, the downside of the current setup is making the weapons not worth a dang for other people - everything else seems to be alright.  I could alternatively make it a 1d10 base, and bump up the movement bonus on the non-punches, but then, why is the brawler so terrible without weapons? And I have concerns about the kicks, etc, being basically unusable without the correct movement.  You already have relics, focus, bows, etc, that are technically usable, but terrible for all but one class, so it's not something new. But since you need two of them, there are going to be more clogging up the item deck.


I play tested him on a few tiles last night with the soldier as the other class. I think they compared rather favorably to one another.  The Brawler was suffering from some major threat issues - the soldier was killing 3-4 things in 1-2 cards in most cases, and it was taking the brawler 3 cards. If he ran a stance, it was even worse.

So, I had a thought and tried it out. Links are played on top of openers in the same slot.  It seemed to balance the threat generation between the soldier and the brawler quite a bit.
The brawler had more flexibility in what he could do with his attacks (drop a minion, lunge over and hit a lair for damage, etc), but the soldier could potentially take out more targets.

I kept a log on the second tile that I set up, and they were fairly close.

The soldier had a few more kills by the end. The Brawler had done a bit more overall damage.  Treasure pops were about even.

The soldier has more interrupts to use during the DC, but the Brawler has a few moves that knock minions and captains prone, which is defensive as well.

The soldier seemed the best existing hero to compare the Brawler to, in terms of balance.

I bumped the 2 damage Hammer attack up to 2ap, but it felt too much -- the soldier could devastate for 3 damage for 2ap. It took me 3ap to do the same with lunge + hammer. I took my sharpie and made it 1ap again.

All attacks will be labeled as - Punch - jab, hook, etc.
                                                   Kick - sweep, front kick, etc
                                           Strength - throws, shoulder charge, etc

For ease of classifying which that styles affect and whatnot.

Anywho. Barring any feedback on the weapon situation, I'm going to work on the new Style cards, tweak a few things I've discovered, and give it a go again.

thesigma

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2014, 12:25:50 PM »
Here are some of my thoughts on a non-weapon fighter weapons generally.

My non-weapon using fighter idea solved the weapon problem by moving most of the work of weapons into the cards themselves. For instance, most attack actions had their own fate dice recipes. However, I was still left with the problem of having the same progression of d10's and fate dice as the other classes. Further, like you I had the issue of having to make both punches and kicks make sense. While I haven't fleshed this out totally, I have some ideas that I'm working on.

First, is the idea to use something generic like wraps that make sense to both hands and feet. For instance, the brown item would be "bare" and just add the same d10 that all browns add. Next could be something like cloth or leather wraps, which would make more sense on hands admittedly, but wouldn't be insane to think of on legs/feet too. You could also do something spiked for a blue item. This idea doesn't work totally with the idea of main hand and off hand that the game calls weapon slots, but something like a quiver already doesn't really fit that convention either, so I'm not as worried about it.

My second idea is to eschew weapons altogether. Just make cards add more d10's then normal classes and put fate dice recipes on the cards. Now you don't have to worry about punches and kicks making sense with the same weapons and you don't have the issue of punches and kicks working differently either. Although possibly the most thematic, this tactic makes balancing much harder.

My third idea is to call the bonuses something like techniques or stances. Basically you'd find the item of a scroll that teaches some new way to fight that would give bonuses to d10's and fate dice. This again is abstract as to main hand and off hand, but it would make thematic sense to then use one weapon for both punches and kicks. It could even use up both slots like the staff if there is some concern about abusing off hands. This would also possibly allow for moving fate dice recipes back to the weapon slot to keep things more consistent with the other classes.

I thought some of this might be helpful, I'll respond again once I have some more time to think about your specific problems.

thesigma

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2014, 06:26:13 PM »
It seems like your two major concerns are having weapons that aren't useful for other classes and having too many of those weapons clogging up the deck.

First, I think it's important to compare this to the class that's most similar: the archer. I believe (although I did not look at the game to check) that the archer has 3-4 green items and 3-4 blue items that are effectively unusable by the other classes. You've already designed more than this. You should, therefore, consider cutting their numbers down if you intend to make them, effectively, class specific.

One way to make these cuts would be to turn the items into two handed weapons. I was thinking that you could even have different fate dice recipes depending on whether the attack was a jab or a hook or whatever.

Another way to make these weapons less of a drain on the deck would be to make them more effective for different classes, although I think this runs into a problem with balance as well. For instance, it looks like a Brigand would like both the Gloves of Quickness and the Master's Gauntlet because they give static bonuses to the off hand slot. You could extend static bonuses to more of the cards so at least the Brigand could use them too since that's the only other character that has an open off hand slot. You might also want to design a gauntlet that be used as a solder's shield. However, I think this might run into balance problems on the Brigand's end. I haven't looked at all the cards in the blue deck yet as I want to keep some surprise, but I believe their are few cards even at blue that give such bonuses.

None of these really addresses the problem with kicks though.

I hope that was at least a little helpful. I'll post again if I think of anything else.

Granite26

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2014, 03:22:19 PM »
Gloves of Quickness should probably play the second link card on top of the previous one.  You might should also specify what happens if you get the recipe on the finisher.

For the Master's gauntlet:  Is the discard at random?  So discard a card at random...  Else say 'Choose a card to discard' or 'You may choose to discard'.

CarelessOpossum

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 02:00:49 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, all.

Going to tweak the bonuses on a few cards, change a couple cards out for others. Going to attempt to handle kicks via movement bonus + perhaps an ongoing style. I may put a FD recipe on one or two, though.

I think I am going to proceed with the claws as being somewhat Brawler specific and less powerful than comparable blue weapons. I'll trim the amount down a bit, though I may keep a couple with a slight passive bonus for a potential brigand use. Will add the clarifications that Granite pointed out (im sure there will be more of these on the hero cards as well).

Going to add a fist weapon required line to the punch attacks.

Type up a basic "how this class works" guide - perhaps just in a post here.

And upload the pdf's in the hopes that someone will feel like printing it out and giving it a go - so I can get some feedback on whether it's fun at all, what needs to change, and whether it's worth balancing/pursuing further.

I think I have decided that once an attack chain starts, it is played out in it's entirety - If the DC is triggered on the opener, you get to play it through to the finisher before entering the DC- since it's considered one attack action for the entire chain.  AP use is between 1 and 2 - so not much different than another class using a 2AP attack when the darkness is at 5AP - you would just carry the extra AP over after the track is reset and put it at 1.   I had initially stopped mid-chain to do the DC, and it felt odd.

I have an entire folder of failed cards that I've come up with, rejected, given up on, or what have you.  Some seem like they are fun, and something that I want to revisit later, though.

Like this one: doesn't make much sense in the base deck, but perhaps has potential as one of the 5 swaps.  It seems fun.


Granite26

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2014, 08:54:58 AM »
Not stopping to do the DC is going to mean losing the C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker card, and all the fun that comes with (L) cards designed to be played in the DC...

Also, XOXOX for putting 'requires fist weapon' on the cards.

CarelessOpossum

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2014, 12:18:33 PM »
Not stopping to do the DC is going to mean losing the C-C-C-C-Combo Breaker card

That is true, and sad. It may be changed after all.

I've been absentmindedly shuffling the deck and drawing 5 cards over and over and over as I read the news and whatnot the last couple days.

Some combos!:









I've yet to go through and make my edits yet...

Granite26

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Re: Custom Hero Class: Brawler
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 01:28:06 PM »
For sweep, I don't think you need to specify minions and captains.  I'd leave that off and let the bosses' immunities handle it. 

Conversely, toss should ONLY work against minions that can be knocked prone.  (Unless you want to leave in the dodge+ax kick combo for bosses)