Author Topic: What if...  (Read 3648 times)

CarelessOpossum

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What if...
« on: May 15, 2014, 12:51:11 PM »
Overall, I am a Myth fan. Obviously so, or I would not invest so much time thinking about it, making things for it, and reading/checking sites about it several times a day.

I love the deck-based class system. I love how differently each class plays due to this. It's hard to go back to games to where the only difference between a ranger and a warrior is that the ranger can roll dice from further away.

I love that is is fully co-op most of all. I get tired of playing the DM.

I like the way the darkness triggers, I like the overall flow of the game.

I love the items and fate die recipes.

I like the traps.

I like the way the game plays, more or less.


That being said, there are things that I do not like about it.


I don't like the repetitive nature of the game. (kill lairs or slaughter field)

The freeform quest system is ok, but I often find myself groaning when I draw particular quests, and I often times go with trap when I have a choice.

I don't like the treasure pop rules (kill 3 in one shot), 6 per tile, etc.

I don't like the zero to sixty loot system - I had several blues by the second round of a story quest.  I'd like much more gradual progression that I don't have to give back.

I don't like the character advancement system - hours and hours for extra cards, or the ability to keep an item.

I don't like character elimination during a quest if you don't have serendipity.

I don't like how most of our adventures turn into 3-4 hour runs just to knock out a few tiles.


So, here comes the "what if" part -


What if there was a campaign spelled out in .pdf form. Similar to the story quests, but in much more detail on how to particularly set things up.

What if each quest had unique elements spelled out on it's page.  Unique traps, perhaps a captain spawns at a certain point with unique stats, etc. Objectives other than killing.

What if each chapter of the campaign spelled out the rewards at the end, rather than using the on-tile system for treasures and coins.

What if item progression was much slower - you may only get a couple white deck draws reward for the first few chapters. Maybe you start getting a green item draws after a few.

What if you got to keep items as you progressed. Gold was kept, potions, etc.

What if there was an experience system. You might get 1 exp for completing a quest.  Exp is used to buy titles, your 5 extra cards, perhaps traits, maybe some other things?

What if the quests could occasionally be brutal , but...

What if there was a way for players to revive other players through a non-combat action rather than serendipity.

What if completion of quest meant rewards and moving on, but failure just meant that you had to replay said quest.

What if the chapters were tuned to be played in the 30m-1h range for the most part (sometimes one tile), with perhaps a larger finale at the end of the Act.



Would there be any interest in such a thing?  This has been rolling around in my head for some time now, but with the time investment involved, there really needs to be more people looking for such a thing to make it worthwhile - not to mention that I would need help in coming up with some quests, play testing, etc.


Oileta

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Re: What if...
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 02:02:16 PM »
oh, carelessopossum, I really like how your brain thinks. So, I will have to think about what you said. let me start by responding to the complaints:

I don't like the repetitive nature of the game. (kill lairs or slaughter field) - so far I agree. I have been tinkering with how to give the game a different feel rather than nuke the lair first. my thought is to increase the lair vitality to 10 (and maybe bump the TN higher) so that I will be forced to address the horde coming at me before slaying the lair. I think that will help me. for instance, since I nuke the lair so fast I have only fought captains a couple of times. :(

The freeform quest system is ok, but I often find myself groaning when I draw particular quests, and I often times go with trap when I have a choice. - I have not free-formed enough to have an opinion, but I think I won't have your concern.

I don't like the treasure pop rules (kill 3 in one shot), 6 per tile, etc. - don't have a problem with it, although it may affect my pacing while I wait for that certain card so I can pop a treasure, but I don't think it slows me down too much.

I don't like the zero to sixty loot system - I had several blues by the second round of a story quest.  I'd like much more gradual progression that I don't have to give back. - in another post I addressed this. I have maxed out the treasure bag. I think penalizing/partially resetting the treasure bag will help the 0 to 60 feel. However, as I have played I realize this game is not designed well for item retention. I have the opposite approach: I want to restrict the items kept per title to a point system of sorts so you have to have several titles to keep one really good item.

I don't like the character advancement system - hours and hours for extra cards, or the ability to keep an item. -- I don't have a problem yet, but I am only 2 stories into it

I don't like character elimination during a quest if you don't have serendipity. - hasn't been an issue, and a small house rule could keep that in check

I don't like how most of our adventures turn into 3-4 hour runs just to knock out a few tiles. - are you implying that there could be more story within a story's act? if yes, then I agree. The paragraph or two at the end of a story are nice, but there could be more in between. I think part of this is that MCG didn't anticipate duration of the game being so long (aka single tiles can take a while) so I think they had a different playtime:story development ratio in mind. So I would love to see stories fleshed out. One easy way of doing that could be to cut out a tile or two out of an act that are not furthering the story, so then you progress at the correct rate.

Granite26

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Re: What if...
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 02:17:09 PM »
For the lair issues, I think that increasing the health could be a good option, but also something like having a mob type with an initial higher spawn, but lower spawn rates.  That would resolve the problem without having to make changes to existing mobs or rules.

Freeform quest could (and should!!!) be improved by adding new quests (a LOT of new quests) that are more generally random and work better in repetition.  The basic goal for a quest is to tell a story and also make the tile a little more challenging.  Maybe if more if the quest lines ended by adding a recurring quest (the villain shows up to get revenge, with a bunch of minions!!!) that is either static, or builds at a decent rate (with N minions, where N is the number of times you've done this quest)

I think you're 100% right about the character progression being extremely lumpy.  I disliked D20 for the same reason.

For the loot system, I think some consumable green items, and a lot more off-class items would help.

Player death is definitely an issue.  You don't want people out of the fun for dying.  Should be houseruled, for sure, especially for the traps.  This combines well with the 3-4 hr story quests.  It would be nice if there were some character progression at a smaller scale.  Maybe weaker titles that didn't let you keep items?  Or achievement titles, with hidden goals to get them (Potion hoarder:  If you have 5 potions in your possession at any time during this session, gain the achievement title Potion Hoarder.  Using this title entitles you to start the game with 1 healing potion.  You may only have on achievement title in play, they don't let you keep items, and they stack with normal titles)

bonedeath

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Re: What if...
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 08:02:01 PM »
Hey! So I've just picked this game up about a month ago, been lurking here about the same time and have similar feelings and ideas. I can definitely see this game moving into a full campaign setting and I really like the idea to be honest. I used to tabletop when I was younger and had fallen out of it, but still really enjoy it. I got some friends together to play this and they had a great time, I didn't have to DM and I could really see myself making a campaign for this game as I can also participate with the group and just let the game mechanics work the storyline. As of right now, it's very roguelike in it's nature and that's one of the things I love about it but I do like a solid story line with a goal at the end. I've read a quite a few posts in the fan-created section and I do like where this community is heading and hopefully I can contribute some ideas and get some C&C back on anything that I may end up submitting (got a few ideas for custom classes!).

Now, in response I like a lot of these ideas.

The experience idea is interesting, though could run into being overpowered, I like the progressive feel to it but you may be able to achieve the same via a full campaign with quests/sidequests.

There definitely needs to be a way to revive via some other resource. Be it character ability, item, merchant(priest, holy one, etc) or pool resource besides serendipity. Right now, you could just grind out trap tiles for serendipity which is pretty monotonous and doesn't really promote playing at all.

As for failed quests, replaying a failed line seems kinda redundant to me. A few of my players aren't that hardcore, they did have fun but I could see making something a chore a total turn off. If you're going full on campaign perhaps two paths. One for the completion, one for the failed. This keeps the story flowing and people still feeling like they're progressing.

thesigma

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Re: What if...
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2014, 11:07:55 AM »
I've also been a little disappointed in what Myth offers. I like it overall, but I want it to be more like an RPG. To this end, I've been increasingly treating it as such.

Last night, I my group went through The Eight-Legged Question, act 2 of The Stone of Life story. It's been mentioned both here and on BGG that as written it's really hard to figure out various character motivations in that story, and after reading all the way though it I'd have to agree. As such, I forced some coherence on it by taking the part as the DM/Story Teller.

I thought the session we did last night was the best one yet because of it. Instead of just reading the text at the beginning and end, I ad-libbed a bunch of stuff. I redid the interrogation of Pete at the end of Act 1 as an RPG encounter and I treated talking to Emberweave at the end similarly. Getting away from the few paragraphs MCG provided I think really allowed me to make the plot of this story make a lot more sense. There was a little railroading, but I think that's okay given the nature of this game.

That quest also effectively gives a quest specific trap in the repeating tiles if you don't tell anyone else about them. I just let everyone roll a d10 at the beginning of the repeat to give them a hint of what not to do depending on the outcome.

The only thing I think is really missing now is something to keep the story more involved during all the fighting. I think the achievement system we've been talking about in the other thread is a step in the right direction here, but I've thought of something else I think I want to implement.

In the Exalted RPG there is a game mechanic called stunting. During a character's turn, they are allowed to take some narrative control of the scene by describing what's happening, usually in connection to an attack they are making. Depending on how well they describe it, and how cool that description is, they are given bonuses to the roll to hit that they make. In Exalted their are 3 tiers of stunts, the last of which requires the entire table to agree that the description is cool enough to warrant the bonus. Because of things like that, I think Myth can support something similar. I'll give it a go next session and report back on how it plays out. 

I am also thinking about making disarming traps a bit more involved. Mansions of Madness has such a system. I haven't worked on this idea enough yet to say much more, but I think it might add some more fun and immersion to the game.

Overall, I think the above changes have made/are going to make Myth a better game for me and my group. What changes any particular group will want though is likely to be idiosyncratic. I'm going to keep on working to make Myth the game I want it to be and I'm all for helping others who want to do the same.

thetang22

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Re: What if...
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2014, 04:21:26 PM »
The only thing I think is really missing now is something to keep the story more involved during all the fighting

That has been my big disappointment with Myth.  With as much emphasis as there was on "Story" during the Kickstarter....there's really not a lot while you are playing.  I know you can say "well it's up to you to fill in the blanks with Story"...hell, I was one of the guys saying just that, early on.  However, in practice...when you read a quest card at the beginning of an adventure, and the next time you come across more quest dialogue is an hour or 2 later, it's hard to argue that there's lots of story.

thesigma

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Re: What if...
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2014, 05:22:33 PM »
I believe the intent of the chapter quests was to keep injecting story. However, most people find them too disjointed to be of much use for this. I have no problems rewriting them on the fly to make sense in context when I can, but some really don't lend themselves to such.

I think a lot of combat heavy RPGs can have a similar problem. I think what I mentioned above will help, but it might not be enough. There is value in looking at how other systems solve this problem.

As I was typing the above I came up with another idea I might want to do with Myth. It's a little off topic from the above, but fits the basic theme of the thread so I'll mention it here.

One thing that I think a lot of people value in an RPG experience is telling their character's story. Why did the apprentice go to apprentice school? What led the Brigand to become a hero? Is the acolyte really blind or is the blindfold for show? The answers to those questions and others like them help people connect with characters and bring them to life.

MCG left us to fill in those blanks ourselves, but I think there needs to be some way to come up with these stories and tell them to each other. A background Act or Story or the like that one player takes the others through as a story teller as encouraged at the beginning of the errata document maybe.

On the other hand, I might be selling MCG short. It might be the case that some of the class specific bonus quests fill in back story, I don't know since I haven't read them. Also, agents might fulfill some of this as we see characters change and grow (Duncan's character at least). Choosing one's journeyman class might also add this personal infusion that I want to have. I guess we'll see.

I'm going to play with this idea some more and maybe post more later if any of you are interested.

Granite26

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Re: What if...
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 09:20:44 AM »
regarding the infusion of story, from what I've seen, it might be enough to add in vignettes or something between the tiles.   The story is intended to give context, but you lose it pretty quickly.  It seems like there's a real lost opportunity for this on the tiles where there are special rules, but not a lot of text.

thetang22

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Re: What if...
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2014, 05:07:11 PM »
The story is intended to give context, but you lose it pretty quickly.  It seems like there's a real lost opportunity for this on the tiles where there are special rules, but not a lot of text.

Well said.  If you keep flying through tiles quickly, you have the opportunity to have frequent run-ins with Quest text.....but depending on your group, that may just not happen.  We had a game in which we were on a single tile for nearly 2 hours.  During that 2 hour period, if there was any sense of story leading into it...it had definitely disappeared by the end of the tile.  The game has an easy tendency to fall into a trap of getting swamped with swarms of enemies, and forgetting that story is supposed to be relevant.

Oileta

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Re: What if...
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2014, 07:02:08 PM »
So, I think we can all easily flesh out the existing MCG stories to have random material interjected between tiles, as granite suggested. Maybe we need a new section for this kind of content, so you can print off one supplementary document to read along as you go through the tiles.
as thesigma said, you could even throw in suggestions on how to make more RPG-feel, so between tiles on story two act 1 the stone of life you may be asking for directions to the jail (which doesn't seem so improbable) unless you want to take the idea that you are deeply familiar with the area and don't need directions, in which case you could have a brief conversation about directing innocents to safety, for example.
what do you guys think.

Yamato

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Re: What if...
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 12:26:02 AM »
I really think a "choose your own ending" type of quest book would really fit the bill for myth,..... I really hope that something like this could be put together in the next KS,..... Or maybe even a compilation by the fans.

That would really add a bunch of story to myth,.... It think this is the biggest draw back to handcuffing the designers with the quest card system,.... No space to really get anyone involved in the story aspect.